Re[7]: Základné info o kryptomenách :: Something smarter than us is going to emerge


node:	Re[7]: Základné info o kryptomenách
template:	4
parent:	Re[6]: Základné info o kryptomenách
owner:	niekt0
viewed by:
created:	22.12.2024 - 20:57:41

cwbe coordinatez:
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ABSOLUT
KYBERIA

permissions
you:	r,
system:	public
net:	yes

je to uplne diametralny rozdiel, v tom co to znamena vlastnit. U PoS mas spojene vlastnictvo a patent na pravdu. Ak bude niekto vlastnit dost solany, tak bude moct kontrolovat celu siet.

U PoW to mas rozdelene, to ze vlastnis nejake mince neznamena ze rozhodujes ktora transkacia plati. (nejaky vplyv na komunitu/cenu mas, ale nepriamy) a ked by aj niekto ziskal >50% hashratu, tak ho musis udrzovat, a lahko ho pomerne rychlo strati. U solany by take nieco bolo fatalne, a neopravitelne.

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Taky diametralny rozdiel by som tam nevidel: v oboch pripadoch plati ze k novym coinom sa dostavaju ti ktori disponuju kapitalom.

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no, ak ho nevidis, tak to vysvetluje preco sa ti tazko odhaduje kam systemy konverguju...

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Priatelu, fakt nerozumiem tymto tvojim ad hominem argumentom, ja som Ti Tvoju Cardano avanturu do tohoto momentu tiez nepripominal. Ale kazdopadne, odkedy som exitol BTC si na vyvoj na kryptotrhoch istotne nemozem stazovat.

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A co ti na to napisat, "ked to tam nevidis" ?

(inak s cardanom som (financne) nikdy nic nemal, to si ma s niekym pleties)

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no možno by stačilo napísať konkrétnejšie, čo by mal vidieť, čo nevidí, ale ty hej

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myslis napriklad ja neviem... nejak takto?

je to uplne diametralny rozdiel, v tom co to znamena vlastnit. U PoS mas spojene vlastnictvo a patent na pravdu. Ak bude niekto vlastnit dost solany, tak bude moct kontrolovat celu siet.

U PoW to mas rozdelene, to ze vlastnis nejake mince neznamena ze rozhodujes ktora transakcia plati. (nejaky vplyv na komunitu/cenu mas, ale nepriamy) a ked by aj niekto ziskal >50% hashratu, tak ho musis udrzovat, a lahko ho pomerne rychlo strati. U solany by take nieco bolo fatalne, a neopravitelne

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Som sa len zbezne pozrel sem: https://miningpoolstats.stream/bitcoin a zo 100 poslednych blokov 53 vydolovali dva mining pooly... A takmer 2 tretiny boli vydolovane poolmi troma...To ma IMHO od decentralizacie dost daleko, skor mi to prijde ako predstupen kartelu resp. monopolu.

A to uz ani nehovorim ze v priemere cca 10-minutova casova delta medzi broadcastnutim podpisanej transakcie a jej prvym potvrdenim vytvara attack surface jak hovado... Mozno nie dnes alebo o rok, ale o par rokov vedeckeho (=polynomial-time utoky na ECDLP) a technologickeho (=quantum comp) vyvoja urcite ... Ono je totiz dost rozdiel ci medzi zverejnenim verejneho kluca (ktory v signature transakcie musi byt nutne obsiahnuty) uplynulo 100 milisekund alebo 10 minut....

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Ano, mineri sa zhlukuju, kvoli agregovanej zlozitosti. Ano, nie je to ideal, a pacilo by sa mi to viac decentralizovane, ale ekonomicka vyhodnost je neuprosna.

Ale stale mas moznost volby, a stale to je permissionless. Ked bude nejaky pool prichyteny pri podvadzani, mozes premigrovat na iny, trh tu stale je. (alebo moze vzniknut uplne novy pool, a ziaden VISA-like kartel mu v tom nemoze zabranit, ta vstupna hranica je dost nizka, je to len kus sw nad exaktne definovanymi standardami) To ze mas par poolov neznamena ze vypoctovu kapacitu vlastni tych par ludi, to su "len koordinatori".

Bloky v btc maju svoje specifika, ale prosim, ak ta mam brat v diskusii vazne, vyjadruj sa hlavne k veciam kde mas nejaku expertizu, kludne neformalnu. Tvoje predpovede o kryptografii za tych 20+ rokov co sa pozname zatial nevysli este ani jediny raz, a sermovat tu pojmami za ktorymi si nie som vobec isty ci chapeme to iste mi nedava moc zmysel.

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ono s tymto satoshi nepocital, ze sa mining pomerne rychlo dokaze preniest na FPGA a odtial na ASIC, to trvalo kolko, ani nie 4 roky. to sposobilo naslednu uzku specializaciu miningu, kde plebs uz dal ruky od toho prec. spolu s poolmi, ktore tiez nepredpokladal, to sposobilo uzku centralizaciu.

ono toto je uz davno fixnute inymi PoW, ako ma litecoin, ktory presne adresoval tento problem a aspon tu uzku specializaciu na hardware dokazal potlacit. pooly ostali aj ostanu, ale je to predsalen insie kafe ako pri asicoch.

taktiez, mas samotny problem pociatocnej distribucie coinov. to je tema sama o sebe. v principe to motivuje distribuovat mining na zaciatku, ale s casom pri mensej odmene za blok sa z tejto distribucie ukrajuje v prospech optimalizacie a specializacie. dnes pri zabehnutych coinoch tazia uz len OC manici a plebs v ramci mass adoption v tomto absolutne nedokaze prispievat nicim. mozno ak by sa distribucia nespravila tak hyperinflacna v pociatkoch, tak by ten mining ostaval dlhsi distribuovany?

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3 odstavec uz je na facepalm, fakt sa snazim priatelovi ktoreho si nadovsetko vazim odkomunikovat vysledok niekolko rokov mentalnej roboty a Ty si ides stale mix ideologie & ad hominem

skoda no...vela zdaru priatelu

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ano, v kazdej diskusii si treba zladit vyznamy pojmov a idealne tak obsirnejsie odpovedat, ako si teraz, nech sa da na to aj reagovat.

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vsetci sme sa za tie roky v tejto hre na niecom odrbali. to ale nie je ad hominem, naraza na to, ze tvoje pocetne silne anti-btc a altcoin predpovede prakticky nikdy nevysli, pamatnici vedia a da sa to aj dohladat:) a napriek tomu verim, ze tentokrat to s kybchainom moze byt inak.

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mohlol by si aspoň pár vetami argumentovať aj vecne, nie len že hodnotiaco že druhý ho nevidí, ale aj čo má vidieť, prečo? lebo ťažko sa na to reaguje potom...keď neviem čo si myslel..

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hahaha, toto je tiez dobré, TLDR, na bitcoin take over by stacilo trikrat menej penazi (Approximately $8.36 billion USD in computational power), vratane prevadzkovych nakladov na mesiac, stále menej ako solana:
(Total Cost for 30-Day Attack: $8.53 billion (hardware) + $506.7 million (operations) = approximately $9.04 billion.)
nez na solana take over (Approximately $27.7 billion USD in Solana tokens) .

a zevraj bitcoin je bezpecnejsi, digitalne zlato...asi tazko 😸

prompt: how much usd in solana coins would one need to take over solana network? and how much usd worth of computational power would one need to take over btc network?

chatgpt:

Estimating the cost to execute a 50% takeover attack on both the Solana and Bitcoin networks involves analyzing their respective security models and current market data.

Solana Network (Proof of Stake)

In Solana's Proof of Stake (PoS) system, control is determined by the amount of SOL tokens staked. To achieve a 50% takeover, an attacker would need to control more than half of the total staked SOL.

Total Staked SOL: As of the latest data, approximately 391 million SOL tokens are staked, representing about 70% of the total supply.

SOL Price: The current price of SOL is approximately $141.73 per token.

Cost Calculation:

50% of 391 million SOL = 195.5 million SOL

195.5 million SOL * $141.73/SOL = approximately $27.7 billion

Therefore, an attacker would need to acquire SOL tokens worth around $27.7 billion to control 50% of the staked tokens, not accounting for potential price increases due to large-scale purchasing.

Bitcoin Network (Proof of Work)

In Bitcoin's Proof of Work (PoW) system, control is determined by computational power, measured in hash rate. To execute a 50% attack, an attacker would need to control more than half of the network's total hash rate.

Total Hash Rate: As of December 22, 2024, the Bitcoin network's hash rate is approximately 836.18 million terahashes per second (TH/s).

Cost of Mining Equipment: The cost per terahash varies depending on the efficiency and model of the mining hardware. As of 2024, efficient miners cost around $20 per TH/s.

Cost Calculation:

50% of 836.18 million TH/s = 418.09 million TH/s

418.09 million TH/s * $20/TH/s = approximately $8.36 billion

Therefore, an attacker would need to invest around $8.36 billion in mining hardware to control 50% of Bitcoin's hash rate, excluding additional costs such as electricity, maintenance, and infrastructure.

Conclusion

While both networks are designed to resist such attacks, the estimated costs to achieve a 50% takeover are substantial:

Solana: Approximately $27.7 billion in SOL tokens

Bitcoin: Approximately $8.36 billion in mining hardware

These figures highlight the significant economic barriers in place to deter potential attackers from attempting to compromise either network.

And if you would add to the costs of bitcoin network take over, also the costs for additional costs such as electricity, maintenance, and infrastructure, how much would it then be, compared to 27.7 billion USD for solana takeover?

chatgpt:

Estimating the total cost of executing a 51% attack on the Bitcoin network requires considering both the initial capital expenditure for hardware and the ongoing operational expenses, such as electricity, maintenance, and infrastructure.

1. Hardware Acquisition Costs

Required Hash Rate: To control 51% of Bitcoin's network, an attacker would need to match the existing total hash rate. As of December 2024, the Bitcoin network's hash rate is approximately 836.18 million terahashes per second (TH/s). Therefore, an attacker would need about 426.45 million TH/s to achieve a 51% attack.

Cost per TH/s: The cost of mining hardware varies, but efficient ASIC miners are priced around $20 per TH/s.

Total Hardware Cost: 426.45 million TH/s * $20/TH/s = approximately $8.53 billion.

2. Operational Expenses

Electricity Consumption: Efficient ASIC miners consume about 30 joules per terahash (J/TH). Therefore, to achieve 426.45 million TH/s:

Total Power Consumption: 426.45 million TH/s * 30 J/TH = 12.79 gigawatts (GW).

Daily Energy Consumption: 12.79 GW * 24 hours = 307.06 gigawatt-hours (GWh).

Electricity Cost: Assuming an average electricity price of $0.05 per kilowatt-hour (kWh):

307.06 GWh * $0.05/kWh = approximately $15.35 million per day.

Maintenance and Infrastructure: Operational costs, including maintenance, cooling, staffing, and facility expenses, can add an estimated 10% to the daily electricity costs:

$15.35 million * 10% = approximately $1.54 million per day.

Total Daily Operational Costs: $15.35 million (electricity) + $1.54 million (maintenance) = approximately $16.89 million per day.

3. Comparison with Solana

Solana 51% Attack Cost: As previously estimated, acquiring 51% of the staked SOL tokens would cost approximately $27.7 billion.

Bitcoin 51% Attack Cost:

Initial Hardware Investment: Approximately $8.53 billion.

Daily Operational Expenses: Approximately $16.89 million per day.

4. Timeframe Consideration

The total cost for a Bitcoin 51% attack increases with the duration of the attack due to ongoing operational expenses. For instance, maintaining the attack for 30 days would add:

30 days * $16.89 million/day = approximately $506.7 million.

Total Cost for 30-Day Attack: $8.53 billion (hardware) + $506.7 million (operations) = approximately $9.04 billion.

Conclusion

While the initial hardware investment for a Bitcoin 51% attack is lower than the estimated cost to acquire 51% of Solana's staked tokens, the ongoing operational expenses for Bitcoin are substantial. Over time, these expenses accumulate, potentially narrowing the cost difference between attacking the two networks. However, both scenarios involve significant financial and logistical challenges, serving as strong deterrents against such attacks.

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sofizmus

ked Solane tak veris, tak podme spravit stavku:

ty mi kupis Bitcoin za 1000 EUR
a ja ti kupim Solanu za 1000 EUR

a takto za 10 rokov sa tu stretneme a porovname si ich hodnotu

jedina podmienka je, ze sa mince nesmu pohnut a zostanu na tej adrese celych 10 rokov

ides do toho?

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inac ja by som isiel mozno aj do tej stavky, napr.

1) ja Ti kupim wrapped Bitcoin ( https://solscan.io/token/3NZ9JMVBmGAqocybic2c7LQCJScmgsAZ6vQqTDzcqmJh#analytics ) za 1000 eur, to ci ho unwrapnes je cisto na Tebe

2) ty mi kupis jitoSOL alebo jupSOL v hodnote 1000 eur (vyber nechavam na Tebe)

ak sa o N rokov ukaze ze sa Bitcoinu (ne)darilo lepsie ako Solane, poslem Ti 31337 K
ak tomu bude naopak, Trezor symbolicky podaruje svoj najlepsi prototyp jednej z piatich Guild kyberie

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pointa tej stavky bola ze coiny budu lezat 10 rokov na (L1) adrese z ktorej sa nepohnu (a vsetci budu vidiet ci sa pohli alebo nie), nie ze budu zawrapovane do nejakych nezmyslov

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a nebola skor pointa si za tych 10 rokov porovnat tie ceny?

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v tom mojom prispevku som definoval jasne ake su podmienky

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podmienky áno, ale pointu: "...a takto za 10 rokov sa tu stretneme a porovname si ich hodnotu".

tá podmienka aby ostali na jednej adrese celý ten čas, mi neni moc jasná, keď tam ide o vývoj a porovnanie ceny za 10 rokov.

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ach, jo, cela tato diskusia je o tom kto ma vacsiu doveru v ktory chain

ak nie si ochotny lezat coiny na adrese svojho oblubeneho chainu, tak mu asi neveris nie?

ta stavka je o nicom, kebyze ten coin za tyzden vymenis za dogecoin a potom si za 10 rokov porovname cenu ale ty uz nebudes mat vobec ziadnu skin in the game

popravde sa divim ze ti toto musim vysvetlovat, to ste spolu s chatgpt na to neprisli?

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cize potrebujes vlozit aj tvoju aj moju "skin into the game", aby si to bol schopny brať vazne? čudné a ja ze tu ide o neosobny suboj idejí (ktora je lepsia a preto jej verim), nie o suboj ég (ego, nie o to komu ide o krk a kto bude vitaz a kto porazeny, lebo niecomu veri, ale ten druhy veril niecomu víťaznejsiemu).
som v tomto ako beriem diskusiu čudny, ja viem. ale pride mi ten mód, rovnako živý, s rovnakou vahou slova, ako pri tom tvojom, len je tam v tom mojom ovela vacsia lahkost.

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There is no place for sentiment in Big Business

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a very dark, cold and lifeless place..

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(edit) aha ci kto comu viac veri 😸? ja ze ktory coin je lepsi..

len som myslel ze nejde o nas, ale o tie coiny a ich cenu. ne o nejake egohry ze kto vyhral..tak nic..

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je to iba prostriedok výmeny hodnoty a nič iné => coin ktorému verí viac ľudí, je lepší

×÷ßßß$ˇ~[☼◙ş→☻ü84ó♀ÇüŮń§►♫☺♀♂ć☺<\ˇ

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ale ten tvoj "sofizmus", mohol by si aj aspoň trochu argumentovať čo prečo ako, nech sa na to dá aj reagovať :D.

Nevypočítal GPT tie náklady dobre? že 30 dňový BTC take over by bol lacnejší než SOL takeover.

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Nevypocital, tie naklady by sa dynamicky menili, napriklad tym, ze by si zverejnil spravu ze sa to deje.

(ono je tazke s tebou argumentovat, ked debata pokracuje casto dost mimobezne s argumentami, a s chatgpt halucinaciami sa diskutovat moc neda. To je mozno tak interny nastroj pre teba, ale TY zodpovedas za to, cim do diskusie prides)

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a sorry, ale nazývať AI generované texty, halucináciami, je podobne odveci akokeby niekto tvrdil že google väčšinou klame, lebo občas nájde aj bludy

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Tu máš krátke 3,5 minútové video ktoré to vysvetľuje:
https://youtu.be/ukFWpseeJi0
src: https://guides.lndlibrary.org/c.php?g=1335741&p=10722347

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https://kyberia.sk/id/9190355

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