Archaeology :: Something smarter than us is going to emerge


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Archaeology freaks, please come in ! Vsetko co vas zaujima o archeologii, miesta, vykopavky, davne kultury a objavy..

links :
www.archaeology.org
www.cyberpursuits.com/archeo/
www.archaeological.org
www.archeologicke.misto.cz
www.arch.studnet.sk

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stredoveki bojovnici nemali brady - holili si ich po druzine navzajom, cim si pestovali doveru a sudrznost; vojvoda tiez nepustil kohokolvek s britvou ku krku

novy Curta - https://www.academia.edu/87442154/Of_beards_and_men_the_archaeology_of_facial_hair_in_the_Carpathian_Basin_6th_9th_centuries_

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https://www.npr.org/2021/09/24/1040381802/ancient-footprints-new-mexico-white-sands-humans

ap_21266739432633_sq-e19a3154b97ed2fe9c795e503652af9be90a6376-s1600-c85.webp

ap_21266739432633_sq-e19a3154b97ed2fe9c795e503652af9be90a6376-s1600-c85.webp

The question of when humans first migrated to North America has long been a matter of hot debate among researchers who have continually uncovered evidence of ever-earlier dates. Now, analysis of ancient fossilized human footprints in New Mexico has pushed the date back once again — to at least 21,000 years ago.

Writing in the journal Science, a team of researchers led by Matthew Bennett of Bournemouth University in England examined a set of human footprints preserved on an ancient lakeshore in New Mexico's White Sands National Park, a location now known for its expansive — and dry — chalk-colored dunes.

They concluded that the footprints were made between 21,000 and 23,000 years ago. The date would place human habitation in the Americas during the Last Glacial Maximum and at least 5,000 years earlier than widely accepted evidence has yet suggested.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbijLYRYK14

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https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/12/08/ancient-cliff-art-amazon

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https://www.npr.org/2020/08/21/904943006/fallen-boulder-reveals-313-million-year-old-fossil-footprints-at-grand-canyon

stephen-rowland-photo-8ba91711691667efa5a69f046ee4e62d75693faa-s800-c85.png

stephen-rowland-photo-8ba91711691667efa5a69f046ee4e62d75693faa-s800-c85.png

A geologist has discovered a pair of fossil footprints that researchers say are the oldest of their kind in the Grand Canyon, dating back 313 million years.

...

"More significantly," he added, "they are among the oldest tracks on Earth of shelled-egg-laying animals, such as reptiles, and the earliest evidence of vertebrate animals walking in sand dunes."

One of the features scientists noticed was the distinct gait of the ancient tetrapods, called a lateral-sequence walk. That's when the legs on one side of the animal move in succession, the rear leg and then the foreleg, alternating with the opposite side.

"Living species of tetrapods―dogs and cats, for example―routinely use a lateral-sequence gait when they walk slowly," says Rowland.

"The Bright Angel Trail tracks document the use of this gait very early in the history of vertebrate animals. We previously had no information about that," Rowland added.

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https://www.irozhlas.cz/veda-technologie/historie/usa-osidleni-archeologove-objev_2007230659_pj

Lidé osídlili Ameriku už před 33 000 lety. To je o víc než 15 000 let dřív, než archeologové původně předpokládali. Tým vědců o svém zjištění informoval v časopise Nature. Svůj odhad zakládá na objevu kamenných nástrojů v jeskyni Chiquihuite v Mexiku.

...

Nejmladší nástroje dosahují stáří 12.500 let. Podle expertů tak lidé jeskyni Chiquihuite, nacházející se ve velké nadmořské výšce, obývali po dlouhých 20 tisíc let.

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Archaeologists racing to save the rare vessel from fungal attacks hope to begin work in June
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/first-time-century-norway-will-excavate-viking-ship-burial-180974854/

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https://www.denik.cz/veda-a-technika/neandrtalci-archeologie-nalez-spanelsko-evolucni-institut-afrika-jeskyne-cova.html

Ačkoli máme neandrtálce zafixovány v povědomí spíš jako primitivní neotesance, měli tito dávní předkové lidského druhu svou vlastní kulturu, kterou bychom neměli podceňovat. Nové archeologické objevy naznačují, že byli schopni bohatého symbolického vnímání, jež dokázali přetavit i do tvorby uměleckých předmětů. Jejich významu stále plně nerozumíme.

Důkaz o tom, že kulturní život neandrtálců byl bohatší, než jsme dřív předpokládali, přinesl nový archeologický výzkum ve Španělsku: tým archeologů zde odhalil orlí dráp ručně vyřezaný do tvaru přívěsku, který byl podle vědců pravděpodobně součástí "posledního náhrdelníku vyrobeného neandrtálci" v době téměř před 40 tisíci lety.

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https://www.idnes.cz/pardubice/zpravy/pardubice-studna-d35-nalez-objev-nejstarsi.A200204_103950_pardubice-zpravy_pp

Dřevěná studna, kterou archeologové našli při záchranném výzkumu pod budoucí dálnicí D35 u Ostrova v Pardubickém kraji, je nejstarší pravěká dřevěná struktura na světě. Potvrdil to dosavadní výzkum archeologů, kteří ji datují do let 5256 až 5255 před Kristem.

„V rozích byly dřevěné kůly, které byly vydrážkované a do těchto drážek se dávala opracovaná prkna. Podle dosavadních archeologických nálezů jsme si mysleli, že tato technika byla použita až někdy v době bronzové a později, například v době římské. Nyní už víme, že byla používána i tímto neolitickým lidem. Takže nejen stáří, ale i vyspělá technologie je velmi zajímavá až omračující. S tím skutečně nikdo nepočítal,“ uvedl Peška.

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https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/01/did-neanderthals-in-italy-go-diving-for-clamshells/

There may be a little more evidence to suggest that Neanderthals waded, swam, and even dove to gather resources along the shores of the Mediterranean. A new study claims Neanderthals at a coastal cave in Italy waded or dove to get clamshells straight off the seafloor to make scraping tools.

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ani nie tak archeologia ako antropologia, ale neviem kam s tym

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https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/16th-century-shipwreck-discovered-beneath-stockholm-180973854/

Of all the many wondrous locations where shipwrecks are found, an urban recreation area in the center of a world capital might be one of the most unexpected. But earlier this year, marine archaeologists uncovered the probable remnants of the 16th-century cargo vessel, likely the Samson, beneath Kungsträdgården park at the center of the Stockholm, Sweden, according to the Local. Though the Samson, a ship commissioned by Sweden’s Charles IX in the 1590s, has been lost to history for the better part of four centuries, the discovery suggests it may have spent quite a bit of that time conspicuously underfoot.

Samson, 1599
by SWEDISH NATIONAL MARITIME AND TRANSPORT MUSEUMS
on Sketchfab

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https://www.npr.org/2019/12/11/786760790/44-000-year-old-indonesian-cave-painting-is-rewriting-the-history-of-art

Scientists say they have found the oldest known figurative painting, in a cave in Indonesia. And the stunning scene of a hunting party, painted some 44,000 years ago, is helping to rewrite the history of the origins of art.

Until recently, the long-held story was that humans started painting in caves in Europe. For example, art from the Chauvet Cave in France is dated as old as 37,000 years.

"They are at least 40,000 years old, which was a very, very surprising discovery," says Adam Brumm, an archaeologist at Australia's Griffith University. He and his colleagues used a technique called uranium-series analysis to determine the paintings' age. The oldest figurative painting in those analyses was a striking image of a wild cow.

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https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/12/radar-reveals-ghostly-footprints-at-white-sands/

Ground-penetrating radar could help archaeologists spot otherwise invisible ancient footprints, suggests a recent experiment at White Sands National Monument, New Mexico.

Tracks left behind in layers of hardened mud and sand at the site record where humans crossed paths with giant sloths and mammoths during the last Ice Age. But some of the tracks appear only when conditions are just right—usually after a rain—which makes them difficult to study. Archaeologist Thomas Urban of Cornell University and his colleagues used ground-penetrating radar to spot these so-called ghost tracks. The radar images also revealed layers of compressed sediment beneath mammoth tracks, which could reveal information about how the now-extinct woolly giants strode across the Pleistocene world.

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https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/12/archaeologists-find-a-viking-ship-buried-in-a-norwegian-field/

Ground-penetrating radar recently revealed a Viking Age ship hidden beneath the topsoil of a farm near the former town of Edøy in western Norway. The ship would have held the body of an ancient Norse leader along with weapons, loot, and other items. Nearby, the remains of postholes mark the ghostly outlines of two longhouses. The find could offer a wealth of information about ancient shipbuilding and Norse burial rites.

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„Ide vôbec o prvú jaskyňu na území Tatier s doloženým pravekým osídlením, tak na slovenskej, ako aj poľskej strane. O osídlení tatranských jaskýň sme nevedeli vôbec nič až do objavenia Hučivej diery. Ani sme ho nepredpokladali, veď v Tatrách boli ľadovce a hranica lesa bola na sklonku doby ľadovej podstatne nižšie. V jaskyni sme našli vzácnu štiepanú kamennú industriu magdaleniénskej kultúry, kosti lovných zvierat, a toto pochádza z neskorého paleolitu spred 15 až 14 000 rokov,“ povedal Marián Soják z Archeologického ústavu Slovenskej akadémie vied.

video: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=484230208996084
clanky:
https://vat.pravda.sk/clovek/clanok/519978-archeologovia-nasli-v-tatrach-jaskyni-s-pravekym-osidlenim/
http://www.podtatranske-noviny.sk/2019/08/huciva-diera-ukryvala-tajomstvo-z-praveku/
https://spis.korzar.sme.sk/c/22170974/v-tatranskej-jaskyni-objavili-unikatne-nalezy-pravekeho-osidlenia.html
https://www.webnoviny.sk/slovenski-vedci-prisli-s-prelomovym-objavom-v-tatranskej-jaskyni-huciva-diera-zili-praveki-ludia/

paper: http://sdsle.sk/wp-content/uploads/AAC_53_03.pdf

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chetitsky manual pre trenerov koni pre bojove vozy - http://www.lrgaf.org/Peter_Raulwing_The_Kikkuli_Text_MasterFile_Dec_2009.pdf

original -

Kikkuli-Quarta-tavoletta-Berlin-Vorderasiatisches-Museum.jpg

Kikkuli-Quarta-tavoletta-Berlin-Vorderasiatisches-Museum.jpg

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Ďalsi uspesny Svodin za nami.

Rozpocet projektu nam dovoluje navstivit lokalitu iba par dni do roka, vzdy na jar a na jesen a tak sme minuly rok a jar 2013 absolvovali povrchove zbery a vytvorili detailny geodeticky terenny model lokality, tuto jesen sa nam podarilo zlanarit geofyzikov. Georadar vo viniciach moc dobre nefungoval, ale este cakame na vysledky spracovania dat geomagnetiky a eketrickej odporovej tomografie.
Pocasie bolo fantasticke a vino dorabane na lokalite silne.

Rekonstrukcia velkeho rondelu vo Svodine s odhadom pouziteho materialu
3D model velkeho rondelu
autor clankov id Oolerin

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Denisovania - niekedy okolo neandertalcov, vyvinuvši sa pravdepodobne v oblasti Altaia. Archeologovia sa nevedia este dohodnut, ci podporuju lokalnu kontinuitu, alebo sa miešanim približuju neandertalcom.

Science 26 August 2011:
Vol. 333 no. 6046 pp. 1084-1087

DENISOVA CAVE, SIBERIA—Bence Viola first saw the ancient molar last summer, just after a piece of it was dug out of layers full of brown dirt, gray rock, animal bones, stone tools, and goat feces. He considered the tooth fragments too big and weirdly shaped to be human. “I thought it must belong to a cave bear,” he says.

Several fossils were found that summer in this remote cave in the Altai Mountains. Some, including a toe bone, looked human and were to be sent for DNA analysis to paleogeneticist Svante Pääbo at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany. Viola, a postdoc at Max Planck, almost didn't include the molar. But he and Pääbo decided to play it safe and test all the new fossils. The layer that held the molar in Denisova Cave was also the resting place of a girl's finger bone, which was so well preserved that Pääbo's lab was able to sequence its nuclear genome and identify it as belonging to a previously unknown type of archaic human. The team called them the Denisovans. For the first time, researchers had a genome in search of a fossil record, so every possible new bone was significant.

Back in Leipzig, graduate student Susanna Sawyer was charged with extracting DNA from the animal bones. In June, she stopped Pääbo in the hall. “I think I found another Denisovan,” she said. Preliminary analysis suggested that the molar's DNA was similar to that of the cave girl's. Pääbo shook Sawyer's hand—this was only the third fossil ever found of a Denisovan, the others being the bit of finger bone and another molar, also from Denisova cave.

What's more, preliminary analysis of the mitochondrial DNA from the toe bone suggests that it belonged not to a Denisovan but to a Neandertal. That means both types of archaic humans lived in the same cave. And the large, three-room cave also holds sophisticated stone tools and bone artifacts that appear to have been crafted by our own species, Homo sapiens. “The one place where we are sure all three human forms have lived at one time or another is here in Denisova Cave,” Pääbo said.

Today the cave is off the beaten path, in southern Siberia, 350 kilometers north of the Russian border with both Kazakhstan and Mongolia, and closer to Beijing than Moscow. Now the Denisovan discoveries have shifted the spotlight from ancient humans in Africa, the Middle East, and Europe to those in this remote corner of Asia. As Russian Academy of Sciences (RAS) archaeologist Anatoly Derevianko puts it: “The world is looking eastward.”

To that end, Derevianko and his Russian colleagues invited Pääbo and a select group of human origins researchers from different disciplines and countries to a remarkable symposium at an archaeological camp near Denisova Cave in July. Their goal was to try to solve the mystery of the cave girl's identity, to find more of her people, and to explore how the discovery is challenging models of modern human origins. In lively discussions sometimes catalyzed by vodka toasts, they compared what archaeology, genetics, and fossils reveal about the world the Denisovans inhabited 30,000 to 50,000 years ago. Genomic data have already shown that our ancestors mingled with archaic humans, who may have given us valuable immune cell types (see sidebar, p. 1086). But it's not clear when and where this happened.
Invisible human

The gathering gave Derevianko, director of the Institute of Archaeology and Ethnography at the RAS in Novosibirsk, a chance to showcase some of the region's impressive archaeological sites. Driving off dirt roads in troop movers and along rutted roads in indestructible UAZ vans, the Russians took their visitors to a dozen digs. Some were caves at the edge of alpine forests of silver birch and Siberian larch; others were open-air sites in grassy meadows of bee balm, wild mint, and edelweiss.

The trail of ancient humans starts with H. erectus, which left primitive “pebble” tools in the Altai almost 800,000 years ago. After a hiatus when the climate was frigid, the descendants of H. erectus returned by 300,000 years ago, leaving more tools behind. Some kind of human has lived here ever since.

Starting 80,000 to 70,000 years ago, archaic humans began to use more modern methods to make tools at sites called Kara Bom and Ust-Karakol, where 10% of the tools were blades or burins (a tool used to chisel wood); the Russians see this as the first stirrings of modern human behavior here.

From 50,000 to 30,000 years ago, the archaic people hunted bear, lynx, and wild boar in the Altai Mountains, where they set up seasonal camps in summer, said RAS archaeologist Mikhail Shunkov as he led the tours. They retreated to limestone caves such as Denisova in winter. “With a natural opening for a chimney, the cave was quite a cozy place,” Shunkov said, pointing to an opening in the ceiling at Denisova. With a clear view of the Anui River—and any humans or animals passing below—Denisova must have been choice housing, said Pääbo, noting how sunlight streaming through the opening overhead lit the cave like a chapel. “It is kind of cool to imagine that the person whose genome was sequenced had seen these walls,” he said.

At about this time, at least two different types or local cultures of artifacts appear, one at Kara Bom and one at Ust-Karakol. The Russians consider both to be sophisticated cultures traditionally associated with only H. sapiens. Similarly advanced artifacts appear at the same time in Denisova, with stone bladelets used on spears; pendants made of teeth of fox, bison, and deer; and even a bracelet made of a mineral found hundreds of kilometers away. Until recently, the archaeologists had “no doubts that people associated with this industry were anatomically modern,” Derevianko says. But now, thanks to the genomic results, it's possible that some were Denisovans, Shunkov says.

To identify the toolmakers, researchers need fossils, but they are few and far between. As a result, “it remains unknown what the Denisovan looked like or how he behaved,” says biological anthropologist Maria Mednikova of the RAS in Moscow. So Viola's talk at the meeting, describing the single new tooth, drew intense interest. Like the first molar found, it is very large and lacks specialized features found in Neandertals. Nor does the tooth resemble a modern human molar, as it has many unusual cusps, Viola says. The finger bone fragment that first yielded Denisovan DNA was so small that it yielded little information other than it was a child's because the growth plate was not fused.

In addition to the few Denisovan fossils, Neandertals also left fossils and characteristic Mousterian stone points and scrapers in Denisova and other caves. At the meeting, Russian researchers described new finds of Neandertal tools and fossils in caves just 100 and 150 kilometers away from Denisova Cave, dated to 45,000 years ago. Mednikova adds that the toe bone from Denisova looks most like a Neandertal toe from Iraq, fitting well with the preliminary DNA finding. And yet Derevianko thinks Neandertals didn't stay long here, because their bones and artifacts disappear by 40,000 years ago. He views them as brief visitors, probably coming from the west in Kazakhstan.
Neighbors, or successors?

It is now clear that Neandertals, Denisovans, and modern humans once occupied the Altai—but were they all there at the same time? This is hard to answer because there are questions about the dating of crucial layer 11 in Denisova Cave. This meter-thick layer held the Denisovan finger and molars, the Neandertal toe, and the modern human artifacts, although some were found in different galleries of the cave. The bones and teeth are too fragmentary to be dated directly. But radiocarbon dating of seven animal bones with cut marks from layer 11 provides dates of 50,000 years or older in both galleries. Yet the layer's youngest sediments date to as late as 16,000 to 30,000 years ago, as reported in December in Nature. Thus layer 11 has artifacts from at least two different periods. And, in the south gallery near the spot where the finger bone was found, an obvious wedge of disturbed sediment suggests some mixing.

For now, Derevianko and colleagues propose sequential occupations: The Denisovans were in the cave about 50,000 years ago, Neandertals came in briefly about 45,000 years ago, and modern humans followed. But the researchers agree that the microstratigraphy of the cave needs more analysis. They are redating layer 11 with radiocarbon on more cut-marked animal bones.
Overall, Derevianko and his colleagues see a gradual, local evolution of H. erectus into H. sapiens in the Altai, with a brief intrusion of Neandertals and Denisovans. This fits a minority view of human origins, called multiregionalism, which posits that the descendants of H. erectus evolved into Neandertals and modern humans—and, apparently, Denisovans—in different regions. Then humans coming out of Africa mingled with the other groups and H. sapiens emerged worldwide.

As Russian and Chinese archaeologists raised their glasses to toast regional continuity, however, several geneticists shifted uncomfortably or even quietly demurred: That theory is in contrast to the long-prevailing view that H. sapiens was born in Africa and swept the globe, wiping out local archaic peoples. And in light of the genomic data, most geneticists now hold a middle-of-the-road view that modern humans arose in and spread out of Africa, then interbred with local archaic peoples to a limited degree (Science, 28 January, p. 392). “If you write that I drank a toast to [regional] continuity, I'll kill you,” one geneticist told a reporter.

But the geneticists do agree with the Russians that modern humans mingled with both Neandertals and Denisovans. Pääbo's team found in 2010 that living Europeans and Asians have inherited about 2.5% of their DNA from Neandertals (Science, 7 May 2010, pp. 680 and 710) and that living Melanesians carry an additional 5% of Denisovan DNA.

If modern humans interbred with Neandertals, researchers speculated that fossils of each group, about the same age and found close to each other in Israeli caves, represented the groups who mixed sometime before 90,000 years ago. Those modern people carrying a small amount of Neandertal DNA then split into at least two groups—one that headed into Europe to replace the Neandertals there, and a second group that headed into Asia to mix with the Denisovans, says population geneticist David Reich of Harvard Medical School in Boston.

At the meeting, the DNA researchers offered some new insights into this story. They found that the three Denisovans, all from one cave, had more variation in their mtDNA than did seven Neandertals from western Europe to Siberia, Sawyer reported. This and another report at the meeting—that Australian Aborigines, like Melanesians, have inherited 5% of their DNA from Denisovans—suggests that the Denisovan home range once stretched far beyond the Altai, into eastern Asia. “This tells us that the Denisovans had large population sizes,” despite their puny fossil record, Pääbo says. It also shows that Denisovans and the ancestors of Melanesians must have interbred before 40,000 to 60,000 years ago, when Aborigines first settled Australia.

As for the timing of the Neandertal-human mixing, the newest analyses tend to push that younger. Population geneticist Montgomery Slatkin of the University of California, Berkeley, said that his model runs gave him a wide range of preliminary results, from 65,000 years to 45,000 years ago, but he's still working the numbers. Reich reported that his independent analyses also suggest a younger date. If the mixing happened more recently than 90,000 years ago, it rules out the Israeli fossils as representatives of the groups who mixed.

Others, such as Derevianko and paleoanthropologist John Hawks of the University of Wisconsin, Madison, interpret the genetic data differently. They think that even small amounts of interbreeding confirm the regional continuity model, and that there was more mixing in the past, but its traces were erased by later waves of immigrants who swamped out the archaic genes.

To help decide among these models, several groups are searching for Denisovans beyond Denisova, as far east as China, where Pääbo is now analyzing fossil DNA. As Pääbo climbed down a ladder into a floodlit pit at Denisova and bent his lanky frame low to get a good look at layer 11, a colleague shouted: “Grab a trowel, Svante.” Pääbo didn't. But like the others, he is convinced that all types of data—genetic, archaeological, and fossil—will have to be integrated in order to tell the story of the Denisovans and so of our own species. “We're beginning to clarify history in eastern Eurasia,” Pääbo said, “and I'm sure that in the next few years, there will be more discoveries.”

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Ja ja som si vzdy myslela ze Bence Viola je zenska..dobre vediet :)

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este obrazok

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Tento vyskum je jeden z najvacsich failov za posledne desatrocia. A najhorsie je, ze amici, nemci a naftarska sibirska lobby tomu porobili taky PiaR a za take prachy (u nas sa tomu tusim hovori upliest z lajna bic), ze vsetci ostatni, co na tom roky rokuce robili a rozumeju tej sedimentogeneze v jaskyni, rovnako ako antropologii, mohli ostat iba ticho :(

xxx

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v poslednej dobe tych failov stretam dako dost :( nie je to tak davno co mame s id oolerin za sebou vyskum v Abchazsku, ruska vyprava totalne ze v pici sme cumeli co sa to tam robi, rozkradanie lokatity, alebo ak to vznosne chceme nazvat vyskum, tak to Schlieman v Troji obohatil vedu viac, tak to co sme tam zazili...

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Tak to tam kybca robila poriadky :)

O pritomnosti a spravani slovakov v Abchazsku mam trochu inu verziu, koli ktorej som sa hanbila pred riaditelom archeologickeho ustavu ako pes. Poznam svojich kolegov roky rokuce a robila som mnohymi z nich, cize teraz neviem..

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povodne som sa chcel tiez vyjadrit ale Siren to vystihla viac nez dostatocne...

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Neviem Biba ako dobre poznas svojich kolegov, ale situacia v Abchazsku bola nezvladnuta z ruskej strany. A vobec ma neprekvapuje ze na nas nakydali tu najhorsiu spinu.

Skakov na vyskum nemal rozpocet bol zo situacie nervozny, neustale pil a prejavoval sa agresivne. Spravali sa ku nam ako ku detom v pionierskom tabore a snazili sa nas sikanovat. preco sme boli hromozvod prave my sa len dohadujeme. neboli sme jedini ktorym sa nepacilo, avsak ruski dobrovolnici mali moznost sa zbalit a odist prec a tak ich aj vela urobilo.

Sikana siahala az po upratovanie exprementov, kde sme byvali a podobne, cely cas sa to len stupnovalo, Sasa sa nam niekolko krat vyhrazal bitkou a nasilim, neviem ci je toto kolega ktoreho poznas, mame to natocene na telefon, teraz to ale nebudem nikam uploadovat, pretoze to bude pouzite formalne.

Dalsi problem bol v tom ze sme nechceli chlastat do nemoty a preto nam vraj bolo vycitane ze sa nesocializujeme. a ze sme sa ozvali proti veciam s ktoymi nesuhlasime (napriklad upratovanie hovien v naplni prace), a tiez nam bolo niekolko krat zdoraznovane, ze sme z europskej unie a preto sme nepriatelia abchazska.

Asi predposledny den nasho odchodu nas bezmyselne vyhnali v dazdi na lokalitu kde sme premokli premrzli a vsetky baby sme dostali zapal mocoveho mechura takze sme nasledujuci den, takisto v dazdi odmietli ist na lokalitu, kde by sa zase len moklo chlastalo a nepracovalo. Nechali nas chore tri dni bez jedla v meste, kde najblizsie miesto kde sa dali zohnat potraviny bolo cca 30km.

tiez sme zazivali vyjednavania, v ktorych ani neviem o co vlastne islo, ale pan Skakov si na to vzdy bral celu bandu akademikov a podgurazeny alkoholom sa snazil vyvolavat konflikty a kozu nam zachranil len nas Abchazsky hostitel, ktory nas branil vlastnym telom. plus jeho priatelka, slovenka ktora nam mala robit tlmocnika, ktora nas tam vlastne zavolala, ma vazne psychicke problemy a nasu situaciu nam neustale zhorsovala podjebavanim. Jej problemy vo vztahu boli evidentne a kedze videla ze Sasa je proti nam zamerany tak ho este hecovala. To akym spobom to robila boli spinave intrigy.

Neviem ci vsetky archeologicke vyskumy funguju vojenskym rezimom a zastrasovanim z pozicie autority o co sa tam Skakov pokusal, stale dufam, ze existuju aj kultivovani rusi. Clovek by fakt necakal, ze clovek vedec a akademik sa moze spravat tak primitivne ako sme zazili, nebolo vobec mozne sa ludsky dohodnut o nicom.

Dalsia vec je sposob vyskumu, kde sa vobec nedokumentovalo, nekreslilo, ani sa nezameriavali nalezy (vedenie ani netusilo ze ma nivelak, kym sme si ho nevypytali na vytycovanie sond.) nozikmi sa vyhrabavali a vypáčovali nalezy, cim sa ich aj vela pokazilo. brali sa len pekne nalezy, koralky ktore neboli cele sa vyhadzovali. To bolo asi tym, ze kopaci boli dobrovolnici z radov kadernikov a ucitelov, ktori mali za ukol doniest nalezy a vedenie bolo mimo lokalitu, prevazne nalozene v liehu. My ako archeologovia sme museli klcovat les, zacistovat sterilne sondy a to niekolko krat za sebou tu istu, prehadzoval haldy, vytycovat sondy. Sposob kopania mame takisto dokumentovany, nie len fotkami, ale aj videami, ale vravim, zial zatial ti to nemozem posunut.

ja som slusny clovek, uplne normalny archeolog, nie som ziadna rozmaznana opica ani burzuj, som ochotna makat, aj nieco prekusnut, aj ustupit v zaujme zachovania dobrej sveobecnej nalady a konflikty do ktorych sa dostanem riesim pacificky ujasnenim si veci z oboch stran a vzajomnou dohodou. tak isto mozem rucit za partiu slovakov, ktora sa na ten vyskum pozbierala, ale sikana co sme tam zazili bola fakt nezasluzena, neopodstatnena a dost hrozna.

skus si to mozno vypocut z viacerych zdrojov... Mozem ti povedat ze za nas sa teda hanbit nemusis, ja som na kolegov ktori boli v tych srackach so mnou hrda, pretoze situacia ukazala kto je aky charakter.

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Nic v pohode, to uplne chapem, ja pisem zle a ani nemusim byt rozhodena.

Ja ani slovom nehodnotim, co ste tam robili a ani sa nezberam, skor mi je uprimne luto, ze vam to vypalilo takto. Ja som v terene som v terene desat rokov po dva mesiace z roku a v RF som presla kvantum expedicii a nikdy som podobnu skusenost nemala, ani nepocula o nej, hoci su miesta, kam by som nesla - prave koli rozpoctu a tvrdym podmienkam (obe su na Kavkaze). To ako sa v expediciach pije je mi zname a zavisi to, bohuzial, od sefa. Ja som zaviedla na Urale suchy zakon a tak je to v hore dalsich miest.
Skratka, nevyzera to dobre, to co si opisala a Skakov urobil jednu jedinu chybu: ze vas okamzite neposlal aj pre vase dobro prvym vlakom prec (do inej expedicie, kedze v okoli robia minimalne dalsie tri a na navrat domov by to bol drahy spas).
Zatial som to pocula z ruskej a z abchazskej strany a je mi jasne, ze su ine. Aj ked, objektivne chyba nikdy nebyva jednostranna a odmietam zaver, ze v Akarmare sa cielene terorizuju ludia.

Imho co sa tyka socializovania, smola je, ze alkohol je jeden z prostriedkov. Konflikty na vyskumoch su stare ako archeologia a kazdy to riesi po svojom. Francuzi si mozu dovolit vodit so sebou do zloziteho terenu psychologov, ktori drzia a buduju kolektiv. Niekedy na to staci sef, niekedy prispieva kulturny antropolog. Tazke podmienky, mala uzavreta skupina a navyse izolovana v horach (stepi, pusti atd) je vzdy jeden velky problem. Ludia sa to snazia prekonavat vela sposobmi, lebo nekompletny tim je pruser. Preto vravim, ze mal mat stipku rozumu a dat vam moznost ist inam. Uz extremne nezodpovedne od neho bolo brat tolko neznamych a este aj inojazycnych ludi, kde riskoval ze sa nieco dost posere a on strati polku timu. Ja by som sa asi neuchlastala, ale psychiatria to je uplne konkretne.

Co si ale dovolim poznamenat, sa tyka metodiky. Myslim, ze bolo od zaciatku jasne, ze nejde o vyskum planigrafie paleolitickeho naleziska a myslim, ze predstavy o tom, ako sa co moze kopat sa rozna. Nikto z nas tu nema skusenosti s vyskumom takehoto naleziska a mam pocit, ze nam nejako nenalezi komentovat roky fungujuci vyskum.

Viem ako pracuju. Vyrocne spravy su dostupne na poziadanie v ramci cinnosti terennej komisie. Podla predoslorocnych sprav bol vyskum aj metodika celkom v poriadku a vykradanie naleziska su velmi silne slova. Nivelak sa nepouziva na rade slovenskych vyskumov (tych styri a pol co mame) v ovela zavaznejsich dovodoch a v X vyskumoch ktore som navstivila mimo SR a RF, lebo niekedy na to proste nie je dovod. Skusenost je prave schopnost zhodnotit situaciu a vediet co s vrstvami mozem a co nie zeano a nie skostnatele sa drzat toho jedineho co viem. Ak s metodikou aj nesuhlasim, prejavim kusok respektu voci cudzej skusenosti a nekritizujem to, za to su specialne plateni ini ludia.
Ak mu tento rok uletel dekel a nic nekreslil a nedokumentoval, buduci rok nedostane povolenie na vyskum, o tom absolutne nepochybujem. Rusi s Nemcami maju jenu z najprisnejsich terennych metodik na svete a komisia mu to proste nezhodnosti - polovica je mimo akademie a az na par vynimiek na nu nikto nema dosah.

Ach a sorry za nemiestnu otazku na zaver..ale my sa pozname? Pardon ak hej, IDcka je niekedy tazke priradit k mojmu okoliu.

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nie osobne sa nepozname, iba z kybce a z oolerinovho rozpravania, ale urco sa dakedy stretneme...

Ako to s tou dokumentaciou bude fakt neviem, pretoze jeden "ucitel" co tam kopal uz viac rokov za sebou vravel ze kope sa vzdy rovnako a dokumentaciu z minuleho roka sme mali v ruke a fakt dufam, ze to nebolo vsetko fikcia, ze tento rok to bol predsedens.

Ak mu ide o licneciu, tak sa fakt necudujem, ze na nas este kyda spinu kade chodi, lebo potom mu ide o kejhak... Ja som kopala dva roky v Grecku a par slovenskych vyskumov, ale aj nearcheologovia si vsimli ze nieco nie je v poriadku... Skakov nam vykladal ze miestny pohreby ritus pozostava z jednej velkej jamy kde ich kazdych par rokov premiesavali, ale ked sme im ukazali ze sme nasli jasne hrobove jamy, dali nam prehadzovat haldy...

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Nejde mu o licenciu, ale o povolenie na vyskum, co su rozdielne veci. A s vami to nema absolutne nic spolocne, nemate na to rozhodovanie dosah ani teoreticky. Kazdemu je jasne, ze jediny a kardinalny problem bol v komunikacii.

Lenze cele akarmarske pohrebisko JE (pri vsetkej ucte k mrtvym) jedna velka jama odpadu, takmer bez systemu! Reutilizovane hrobove jamy, jednotny horizont odpadkov a kosti, cele zvrchu niekolkokrat zapalene a systematicky rozkradane od doby zeleznej po dnes! Lebo to je v skratke cely kolchidsky ritus. A vedia to tam vsetci, ma prekvapuje, ze ak to zle vysvetlil Skakov, nezopakoval vam to tam niekto zo starsich. Ze vyse desatrocny vyskum (uz druhy v poradi) neukazal ani pol zaujmavej konstrukcie abo systemu, nic okrem typologie. To viem este aj ja a nie je to ani moje obdobie.

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dobre bezohladu na to co si myslis ze tam je (co sa asi viac rokov o tej lokalite pise) a co sme tam videli my (nehovoriac napr o vyhadzovani zlomenych kostenych koralikoch, niceni nalezov vypacovanim ich zo zeme a absolutna absencia vedenia na ploche), spravanie toho cloveka ma neprekvapilo len v porovnani so vzdelanym vedcom ale aj v porovnani s omnoho primitivnejsimi spoluobcanmi. Ten clovek sa sprava ako zviera. Chybu v komunikacii vysvetluj niekomu kto sa ta snazi ohrozovat na zivote, kto ti zakaze pristup do kuchyne a snazi sa ta nechat choreho o hlade niekolko dni, akokolvek podla vas nekorektne sme sa srpavali, alebo zle kopali a snazi sa ta takto vytrestat za veci, ktore s vyskumom vobec nesuviseli. To nie je vznosne nazvana chyba v komunikacii, neslo o hadky.

alebo si myslis ze je ich postup spravny? ved si predstav tu situaciu, mas na vyskume cudzokrajnych studentov a povedzme ze nesuhlasia s tvojou medotikou (co ani nie je nas problem, ale povedzme ze takto je situacia interpretovana z ruskej strany) tak riesenim je ze sa im zacnes vyhrazat bitkou a ohrozovat ich na zivote? Tvoji ruski kolegovia ktorych sa tu snazis obhajovat si nas v skupine obstali, spinavo nam nadavali a snazili sa provokovat nasilie, jeden na druheho pokrikovali drzte ma lebo ich zabijem a ukrajinsky "kolega" si nosil na taketo stretnutia noz. Neublizili nam len preto ze sme mali podporu miestneho abchazskeho obyvatelstva, ktore sa za nas postavilo. Toto nie je chyba v komunikacii toto su skutky. Viem ze je to tazko uveritelne ale potvrdi ti to 6 dalsich ludi, ktori tento teror zazili so mnou a potvrdia ti to aj ruski dobrovolnici, ktori boli lucidni a tajne nam nosili jedlo...

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hawk, dohovorila som aby tato debata neprerastla do flejmu. a nepis mi prosim ta s vykricnikmi ked si situaciu nevidela nezazila, som na to citliva.

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ach Bibs toto je skor tema na osobnu debatu.

tak isto ako nas nenapadlo pochybovat o dusevnej pricetnosti vedenia vidim ze aj ty predpokladas ze sa aplikovala sice ina, ale predsa aspon nejaka metodika... ale ked vidim ako niekto rozkopava hroby a tvrdi ze to su len roztrusene nalezy nepotrebujem ziadu hlbsiu znalost situacie

jednym z problemov bola urcite temer uplna absencia komunikacie medzi nami a Skakovom, ale potom ked sme uz zacli trochu rozumiet / hovorit rusky uz ziadnu diskusiu nepripustal a len sa nam stale vyhrazal.. proste total fail

ad teror: ked sa Skakov Sari (id Siren) vyhrazal ze ju zmlati ak doma bude reportovat o tom co sa tam dialo nepovazujes to za terorizovanie?

viem ze to vsetko znie neuveritelne, ale take su fakty a je nas 7 ludi ktori to mozu potvrdit

jo a o inych vyskumoch v okoli sa nikto nezmienil a odist sme nemohli kedze listky na vlak bolo treba kupovat mesiac vopred a ja som mal aj tak vytknuty clenok a nebol som schopny vacsich presunov (museli by ma asi niest aj s ruksakom az do Moskvy :))