Re[6]: do ohnicka prilejeme 2dc oleja :D :: Something smarter than us is going to emerge


node:	Re[6]: do ohnicka prilejeme 2dc oleja :D
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parent:	Re[5]: do ohnicka prilejeme 2dc oleja :D
owner:	Thunder Perfect Mind
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created:	03.03.2013 - 16:26:02

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a) "placebo posobi" (ak dame na bok rozne vysledky roznych studii, ktore uvadzaju roznu mieru ucinnosti a rozne problemy, pri ktorych posobi)
to ale prave na bok nemozeme dat, pretoze ono vacsinou neposobi (to ta studia clekom spolahlivo dokazala) a statisticky signifikantne posobenie placeba je vynimka a nie pravidlo. updatnuta verzia tej studie ide viac do hlbky a zistila ze napriklad proti bolesti moze byt efektivne fyzicke / terapeuticke placebo ale nie tabletkove.

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ok, tak by sme sa mohli zhodnut na tomto: "homeopatia moze byt ucinna do tej miery, do akej miery moze byt ucinne placebo".

tym padom sa cela debata presunie na otazku: "do akej miery a ci vobec funguje placebo efekt."

neodvazujem sa robit arbitra, faktom vsak je, ze som sa stretol s viacerymi vedeckymi studiami, ktore sa zoberali placebo efektom. porovnavat ich vypovednu hodnotu s vypovednou hodnotou tebou linkovanej studie si vsak netrufam.

viem vsak co v medicinskej brandzi znamena casopis Lancet ("The Lancet is a weekly peer-reviewed general medical journal. It is one of the world's best known, oldest, and most respected general medical journals.") a predpokladam, ze by v tomto casopise neuverejnovali vyslovene hluposti:
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673609617062/abstract?_eventId=login&rss=yes

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"homeopatia moze byt ucinna do tej miery, do akej miery moze byt ucinne placebo"
Ale este musime doplnit: pri vedeckych studiach. V beznej praxi nema laik ani lekar luxus kontrolnej skupiny a nema takmer ziadnu moznost posudit, ci ku zmene zdravotneho stavu doslo vdaka (alebo napriek) jeho intervencii alebo z inych dovodov. To je problem prave pri takychto metodach (ak mas bakterialnu infekciu, pravdepodobnost uspesneho vyliecenia konkretnej infekcie konkretnym antibiotikom je vyrazne vyssia ako pravdepodobnost spontanneho vyliecenia a uspesne sa vyliecis, tak to s velkou pravdepodobnosotu mozes pripisat antibiotiku bez inych znalosti. ak to iste "liecis" homeopatikom s nulovou pravdepodobnostou vyliecenia infekcie vdaka "lieku" a vyliecis sa, tak to homeopatiku pripisat nemozes, ale bezny clovek ma velku tendenciu prave toto spravit)

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Ty mas zaplateny pristup, alebo len vychadzas z toho, co je uvedene v Summary ?

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Clanok je dostupny z inych zdrojov a nie je tam nic prevratne

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Laboratory evidence supports the existence of several placebo mechanisms and placebo effects in both healthy volunteers and patients with a variety of medical conditions. Furthermore, clinically relevant evidence shows that placebo effects can have meaningful therapeutic effects, because of their long magnitude and duration, in different patient populations. Although substantial progress has been made in understanding placebo effects, much laboratory and translational clinical trial research remains to be done, with the ultimate aim of harnessing placebo effects to improve patient care.
http://www.fisica.uh.cu/rationalis/etica-placebo/Lancet2010/Lancet2010.pdf

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ja som to cital, nemusis citovat. Stale je to hlavne o bolesti a subjektivnom vnimani zdravotneho stavu, preto pisem ze nic prevratne, ale aspon tam nacali otazku etiky.