Re: Offence :: Remember, remember, the velvet November


node:	Re: Offence
template:	4
parent:	Offence
owner:	X89
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created:	15.09.2006 - 23:46:14

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co cakat od hlavneho dogmatika rimsko-katolickej cirkvi...?

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slo o citat byzantskeho cara z cias vojen s Osmanmi, nie o nazor Cirkvi; konkretne spomenul dialog medzi carom Manuelom II. a istym perzskym ucencom o vztahu vole cloveka a jeho naboznosti

kamenom urazu je pravdepodobne tento text:

In the seventh conversation edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion". According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...".
The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality. Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practise idolatry.
At this point, as far as understanding of God and thus the concrete practice of religion is concerned, we are faced with an unavoidable dilemma. Is the conviction that acting unreasonably contradicts God's nature merely a Greek idea, or is it always and intrinsically true?

otazku kladie Grek a Ratzi na to reaguje, ze to je typicky grecky problem - mozno typicky nemeckou formulaciou - a napokon sa zamotava:

In all honesty, one must observe that in the late Middle Ages we find trends in theology which would sunder this synthesis between the Greek spirit and the Christian spirit. In contrast with the so-called intellectualism of Augustine and Thomas, there arose with Duns Scotus a voluntarism which, in its later developments, led to the claim that we can only know God's voluntas ordinata. Beyond this is the realm of God's freedom, in virtue of which he could have done the opposite of everything he has actually done. This gives rise to positions which clearly approach those of Ibn Hazn and might even lead to the image of a capricious God, who is not even bound to truth and goodness. God's transcendence and otherness are so exalted that our reason, our sense of the true and good, are no longer an authentic mirror of God, whose deepest possibilities remain eternally unattainable and hidden behind his actual decisions. As opposed to this, the faith of the Church has always insisted that between God and us, between his eternal Creator Spirit and our created reason there exists a real analogy, in which - as the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 stated - unlikeness remains infinitely greater than likeness, yet not to the point of abolishing analogy and its language. God does not become more divine when we push him away from us in a sheer, impenetrable voluntarism; rather, the truly divine God is the God who has revealed himself as logos and, as logos, has acted and continues to act lovingly on our behalf. Certainly, love, as Saint Paul says, "transcends" knowledge and is thereby capable of perceiving more than thought alone (cf. Eph 3:19); nonetheless it continues to be love of the God who is Logos. Consequently, Christian worship is, again to quote Paul - "worship in harmony with the eternal Word and with our reason (cf. Rom 12:1).

kazdopadne k zaveru Ratzi hadze rukavicu miernejsie:

"Not to act reasonably, not to act with logos, is contrary to the nature of God", said Manuel II, according to his Christian understanding of God, in response to his Persian interlocutor. It is to this great logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures.

(cely text tu)

"jednat nerozumne je proti prirodzenosti Bozej"; nerozumneho to sice urazi, no rozumneho povzbudi hladat, ci nerobi sam nejaku chybu - svaty stolec svoju odpoved vyhlasil, dufam, ze sa priaznivci Mieru tiez neurazia ;)

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Ratzi to dobre spackal. Najhoršie na tom je, že nemohol nevedieť, akú reakciu spustí. A čo si mám myslieť o pápežovi, ktorý rozpútava spory?

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Tiež si myslím, že na pápežskej úrovni, pri tom množstve poradcov nie je možné také niečo nepredvídať. Ale otázka je, čo tým sledoval?

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ale ja viem, ja som si inkriminovanu cast prednasky pozrel v povodnom zneni, ale Ratzimu by malo byt jasne, ze operovat s pojmami 'Svätá Vojna' a 'Muhhamed' v suvislosti so spominamymi citatmi vyzaduje znacnu diplomaticku obozretnost.

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zase al-Jazeera dokaze aj z najopatrnejsej reci spravit vojnove stvacstvo ;)

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Z tohoto tvojho výroku aspoň nikto nič robiť nemusí,
je štvavý voči al-Jazeere celkom explicitne.

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ber to ako divacku kritiku

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5349808.stm

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rimsko-katolickej cirkvi 1,5 roka. ON ma na svedomi vsetky zhovadilosti este z cias Wojtylu.